Yap yap yap....to make a long story short...anyone with a hand grinder, that
has never really done porting work or hand machining shouldn't be playing
around with one on their throttle body (or heads) in the first place. It
also looks like you have a personal "issue" with Jules since I didn't even
mention him until the last sentence and you keep bringing up his name.
(Yes, I've dealt with Jules over the phone and personally...he's a little
bit "Rough" at first but then again, I'm used to dealing with people of
different backgrounds and personalities on a daily basis. )
The other comment rather shocked me when you stated that (in the past of
course) you wouldn't even give me the time of day. It's rather humorous to
me when I did deal with some of the pros on a regular basis...Hans
Kreusel -HJK Racing, Larry Klein - HP Engines, and those are just two of
them engine and racecar builders. Most of the drivers at the track (no
matter what class) were always able to chit chat and "give you the time of
day". (Difference in personalities I guess.)
- Bernd
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-dakota-truck@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: DML: Throttle Bodies-Response to Bernd
You really missed my point Bernd. I'm not criticizing spending money on
serious mods for a street vehicle. I am criticizing taking any single item
to the nth degree. All too often I see people max out one or two things
then leave a great deal of there vehicle factory stock. Usually because it
easier to bolt on a "magic" TB than do something more cost effective (HP/$
spent) like say a cam change.
No where did I suggest anything about having an organ grinder monkey
duplicate a Jules TB with a dremel. Show me a shadetree head porter and
I'll bet I can show a junked head. You'll find no bigger critic of dremels
in untrained hands than me.
First let's address my background. Not to criticize a Pro Street Camaro,
but in my former life as a racing snob, I wouldn't have given you the time
of day. I've grown up now, and love hot rods of all preparation levels.
But in my own case, I'm not talking about bracket racing "approved" cars.
I'm talking about an NHRA Super Stock eliminator car that has held both
ends of the NHRA SS/GA national record. It isn't current, but my father's
stockers held countless NHRA national records along with two NHRA World
Championship's and more divisional championships than I can count. I've
also worked on Comp eliminator and Pro Stock cars where things get a little
beyond human understanding. One of those Pro Stockers was the last small
block car to hold the NHRA Pro Stock record (and it was a Mopar! Just a
little drag race trivia). I have sat all night in front of a flow bench.
I have spent all night in the Dyno room. I have watched the Venolia truck
drive up with another truck load of forgings that will spend hours in the
grinding room in the care of a master craftsman following the requests of a
master race engine designer/builder, but will be judged junk when the dyno
numbers don't show results.
The only reason I "brag" in this manner is to let everybody here know that
I understand the cost, time, and work necessary to get one more 1/100 of a
second. And there is no reason to be doing it to any street vehicle, I've
ever experienced. And I've seen some nasty street vehicles. My real point
is DON'T START CHASING HUNDREDTHS TILL YOU'VE EXHAUSTED THE TENTHS!!! And
guess what!!! The first tenths cost far far less than the last hundredths.
We don't have good comparison numbers on throttle bodies so its a little
bit of a shot in the dark. But Jules' top of the line stuff reaches a
price level where I cannot justify it from any rational standpoint. I
would offer two explanations.
1. Ignorance. Its rampant!
2. Conspicuous Consumption. That is to say you gained some satisfaction
just by the fact that your TB cost more! Talk about your Placebo effects!
Now let's talk upgrades that make sense. I'm going to have to make up some
numbers to make my point so please forgive me as I pull these out of thin
air. If a $300 TB modification offers a strong improvement over stock and
flows say 95% of a $1200 unit, then you can get a lot more performance out
of your extra $900 spending them on something other than chasing the last
couple of CFM out of your throttlebody.
The $300 is going to take care of the good majority of your bottleneck.
Now its time to move on and look into something else. I have a 4.7. The
first thing to mod is obviously exhaust flow and air intake. Then throttle
body. The next big items would be cam profile and a custom computer flash.
If you've got an automatic you've got to focus some energy there on some
custom work. If you have an open differential, then I don't even know why
you've read this far. If you have a manual and you interested in big mods
you'll be replacing your clutch soon enough. I wouldn't be going with a
stock unit.
If I supercharge the 4.7, port the heads, change the cam, run headers
through a custom Y, smooth out the intake manifold,have a custom computer
flash done, and sort the drivetrain then maybe its time to go back and
consider if my lowly $300 of TB work is adequate. My guess is that an
extra $900 in mods isn't going to change much. I would probably be looking
for wholesale substitutes. Truth is, if I had so much money that was
willing to cough up $900 in additional TB mods, I would probably be more
inclined to go have a custom intake done with provisions for two stock
TB's.
One more problem with this guy Jules. He's trying to patent his TB mods.
I highly doubt if he has come up with any teutonic rocket science that
isn't a part of nearly EVERY major league race engine builders arsenal. I
said major league, so don't flippin start talking about Bo and Luke Duke
racing down on the corner. If he gets his patents, my guess is that he
will strong arm his competitors. If he were to threaten patent
infringement suits against guys like F&B or Quick D there is no way they
could afford to fight it legally. And when Magnum Performance is the ONLY
game in town, there won't be any $300 TB upgrades for our DAK's... you
know....for little people like me that won't spend $900 on 2 CFM for a
lowly street vehicle.
Besides, have you ever tried to deal with Jules over the phone. I have a
short fuse for his kind. I guess I could walk into his shop to prove my
dollars are real, but it ain't worth going to Houston over.
-Steve Ekstrand
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Jun 20 2003 - 11:55:44 EDT