Warning to everyone...... A very long post. Please forgive and understand.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Pukeloser@aol.com>
To: <dakota-truck@dakota-truck.net>
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: DML: More Diesel Stuff...attn. Jon, Ray, and Jeff
>
> You gota be careful when rating the miles you get out of
a diesel. Diesel
> engine progrressively lose power and torque as they age much worse than a
gas
> engine.
Umm, ok?!? Not to start a flame or anything but that is completely contrary
to what I have ever learned about a diesel. Yes they age but usually thier
break in process is much longer (can be up to 60 or 70k) so usually they
start getting better mileage over the long run. I won two diesels now, one
is new and one has 30k on it. The one with 30 is still going up in mileage
as it gets more broke in. It's around 45 to 46 in the city and now it gets a
steady 52 on the hwy.
They dont handle stop and start conditions as well either.
My friend has a '95 Dodge ram with over 300k on it and never a rebuild. He
owns a lawn business and starts and stops all day long with a very large
double axle trailer so I don't think the start and stop is a problem here.
The weakness in his setup has never been the engine but the tranny had to be
rebuilt at 150k and again at 300k due to seriuos wear. The same for the rear
end.
The cost
> of oil changes on a diesel is way higher than on gas.
That is completly true but I think the far higher gas mileage that can be
got far offsets the oil change part. In the samll cars I have with diesel
it's runs about $30 for an oil change but that includes a new filter and
water seperator. More parts = higher cost. BTW, the same friend with the
trailer gets around 18mpg around town. Might not sound like much but put a
gas engine there and see what you get.
And starting this
> October the government is placing all sorts of new emisions regulations on
> diesels that are going to cause probs for the next few years at least,
just
> remember how shitty gas engines were when they started emmisions
regulation
> back in 1974. Hell, it took them 20 years to get the gas design to a
reliable
> level.
Again, you do make a valid point but you have to look at the full picture.
They are starting the higher standards due to the fact that they are getting
ready to switch over to the european grade of diesel which has far lower
sulfer and burns much cleaner. It will not be mandatory until 2006 but Cali.
has already started selling it and the oil companies are going to start
rolling it out over the next few years. It does cost a fraction more (oil
companies are saying 2Cent a gallon more) but it helps them since they can
now process a single fuel for the major world market instead of the
different blends. As for taking 20 years to get it right we'll you need to
check out europe. They sell between 45 & 48% cars as diesel due to higher
fuel costs so they had to make the engines quieter, less smelly, and better
performing to make the consumers happy. Remember, our county is probably the
biggest dead head when it comes to diesel but overseas, especially europe,
they build quite a few performance cars that are diesel. If you are reading
this and thinking that this has nothing to do with the american auto
builders realize that they have been selling thier own version of high-end
diesels overseas for a few years themselves. The biggest reasons these don't
come here is the crappy fuel that we have here and the fact the majority of
the public has a bad look at diesels. This is beginning to see a change but
it still will take time.
Also, check into the cost of rebuilding a diesel (or for that matter
> getting performance parts).
Performace parts on a diesel from what I have seen are not much worse than a
gas engine for a similar outcome. Sure they are somewhat more expensive for
certain items but it has more to do with low interest than the engine
itself. Again, look to europe where they are popular and the prices between
the two aftermarket parts followings are about the same. Yes, a diesel can
cost more to build, but agian this has to due with popularity not design.
The diesel engine is far simpilar than a gas engine in design so actual
rebuilding is a simpilar process. Here's food for thought. One reason people
assume diesel engines won't last long is due to modern diesels using a
turbocharger for a boost in power. We'll in a gas engine we all know that
even the best turbocharged engine will have to be rebuilt at no more than
say 150k (have no idea on actual but from what I have seen this is a good
estimate) but in a diesel the turbo last tremdously longer (in alot of cases
it's outlast the engine to the rebuild process) since the diesel doesn't
generate near as much heat to go through the turbo. Rpm spinning has an
effect too but add to that heat and there is the common cause of turbo
failure. As for the the length of time for rebuilding that over a larger
average a diesel engine generally last longer than a gas engine. I am not
saying the v^ magnum cannot last that long and I am not saying that the
diesel engine will last that long each and every time but just following a
little information over the years you'll find that the disel has a far
better chance of longer enfine life. Remember too that overall maintanence
is less costly of a diesel since there is no tuneup to do (with the
exception of adjustments in very old diesels). All you have to do is keep
the airfilter changed, oil changed along with filters, and replace glow
plugs at 100k and you've got it.
My uncle Tony is Vice president of domestic
> engineering at Mack diesel so believe me I know the diesel engine has
major
> potential and can get great mileage (depending), but a gas engine that
is
> not abused and is properly maintained can easily get 300k (not including
> magnum V-6 timing chains).
>
> John S
>
Look I am not here to bash you or start a war or anything but I do believe
in a good discussion and that's what I feel this is. Realize that the reason
a disel is used in so many industrial application from semi-truck to ship
engines to construction equipment is the general long life, simple to
maintain, and the general fuel mizing design of the engine. Does this mean I
have a beef with gas engines.....NO. I don't like the pollution factor,
which I will mention in a sec, but I love the rumble of a v8 (have a
beautiful classic restored restored '68 mustang) and the thrill of getting
on it. I just see the merits of diesels too that's all. If you think some of
waht i have to say is wrong some me be since I don't have hard facts to
back everything up other than what I have learned and seen over the years.
As fro the pollution factor understna done thing about the epa report which
is now making everyone believe diesel is more dangerous than gas. First
right at the beginning of teh paper the epa clearly states that they need to
go back and evaluate this agian since the test subjects were mainly form the
eightes and early ninetees with some being from the late seventies. Modern
diesels do not smokes hardly at all (with the excception of industrial use
as defined above. The industrial engines themselves could be designed to not
smoke either except like the car engines they would incur serious internal
damage due to the high sulfer content in our fuel. Most of the black smoke
you see is soot which for the most part is harmless. In tests, again in
europe, it has been found that a modern diesle engine is more enviromentally
than a gas engine. Also think what type of mileage you would get from a
hybred if they used an extremely small diesel to replace the gas engine. Can
you say over 100mpg. I think it would easily be possible.
So after this incredibly long post (longest I have ever done) you now have
my thoughts and opions on the diesel. Again, I am not blasting or flaming
anyone not am I trying to envoke a fight. I just feel that the staements I
read were correct to some degree but not the complete picture so I had to
defend something I believe in. I would have bought a Ram with the Cummins in
it excpet for three things. 1) I could figure what I would ever need a truck
that big for. 2) That being said I would still have bought something like it
anyway except for the lack of funds. To get a diesel in a Ram is not a cheap
proposition. I have other things to spend my money on (see classic car link
above). 3) This is the final and big one. Due to the problems I had with my
dak I was afriad of having to deal with the dealer network again. They
messed up my truck and they did not want to fix it. Understand the final
straw for me was 5 days before I got rid of it I had a very trusted mechanis
do a bore scope on all cylinders. They found that 6 had pitting in the top
of the pistons from running too lean and hot for so long. I showed these
nice sharp color photographs to the service manager and he said the same
exact thing when I showed him my blisted spark plugs 5 mos. before. "Yup
it's running too hot" I went to another dealer, called the customer care
line, and fought with the regional rep. Right now I have a lawsuit filed
with Chrysler to reclaim every penny I ever spent on the truck, including
payments, maint., and all lawyer and court costs. Of course it's been racked
up higher trying to get them to settle. I may or may not get anything but
this is my dissatisfaction and that's why I really didn't buy one.
After all of this....Dak content. I still have my '96 dak that runs like a
bat outta hell.....
Jon, please forgive the giant post and use of your bandwidth.
Jeff Durling
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