is "snake oil" the best technical term you can come up with?
don't knock something that you apparently don't have a good enough
understanding of...
And remember, we are talking real world... where manufacturing leaves room
for error...
no vehicle will run at a perfect 14.7.... think about the standard
deviation allowable by the computer... a mass-produced computer...
Why don't you put any stock into dyno charts? Dynos are just as reliable
and accurate (if not better) as the emissions testing equipment at
inspection stations.
Dynos show real world numbers...
I must also comment on this:
>Almost all my tests were done with either a wide-band or a narrow-band O2
> sensor in the exhaust stream. The tests were conducted on the road
(cruise
> control on and set at around 55mph) over a 2+ hour period datalogging the
> values using either a scan tool or data acquisition equipment sampling at
a
> rate of 200+ times per second. The 2+ hours worth of data when averaged,
> yielded almost exactly 14.7:1 A/F EVERY time. Since this agrees
> w/everything I have read (as well as the federal mandate), it didn't raise
> any suspicion (like your data).
So, you were taking primarily static condition information... steady speed,
rpm, etc....so, the computer would have plenty of time to adjust, with only
small differences in its sensor values....
What about testing under acceleration?????? The computer must adjust
continuously due to the constant changes in RPM, MAP sensor, IAT, O2
sensors, etc. It must first read the information before it can change it,
and by then the inputs have already changed again...so, it would be
theoretically impossible for the computer to be dead on at 14.7 under
acceleration.
Why don't you try a Hyperspeed unit out yourself, before trying to disprove
it's performance.
(and by the way, I used to work in the automotive industry and do have
experience in testing procedures)
Thanks,
Tom "Slick" North
96 Dodge Dakota 5.2L RC
71 Chevelle Malibu 350
71 Porsche 914/2.0L
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shane Moseley" <smoseley@ix.netcom.com>
To: <dakota-truck@buffnet.net>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 2:58 PM
Subject: DML: Re: Hyper Speed Controller
> That chart doesn't look like "light throttle acceleration" (not even
> close). In fact, it looks like the majority of WOT dyno run charts that
> I've seen. Only WOT (or at least heavy throttle accel) would explain the
> lack of data points at or near the same MPH reading. How else could you
> explain the greater than 100mph data points? Cruise conditions imply at
or
> near the same mph (or vacuum) readings.
>
> Besides, I don't put alot of stock in dyno charts anyway. Your last
comment
> intrigues me tho. Especially due to the fact that I have NEVER seen
> anything other than a near perfect 14.7:1 A/F on EVERY (late-model,
> computer-controlled, modded or stock) vehicle I've tested. Your results I
> have to question because every vehicle maker (producing vehicles made to
be
> used in most countries) is mandated by the federal governments to come as
> close as possible to 14.7:1 A/F due to the catalytic converter efficiency
> issue.
>
> Almost all my tests were done with either a wide-band or a narrow-band O2
> sensor in the exhaust stream. The tests were conducted on the road
(cruise
> control on and set at around 55mph) over a 2+ hour period datalogging the
> values using either a scan tool or data acquisition equipment sampling at
a
> rate of 200+ times per second. The 2+ hours worth of data when averaged,
> yielded almost exactly 14.7:1 A/F EVERY time. Since this agrees
> w/everything I have read (as well as the federal mandate), it didn't raise
> any suspicion (like your data).
>
> The basis of my initial post was about the validity of the "HyperSpeed
> Controller" and its ability to change A/F ratio during cruise conditions
> (not enrichment, or WOT modes) to some arbitrary value set by the user.
> Considering that the factory's narrow-band O2 sensor is all but USELESS
when
> reporting ANYTHING other than richer or leaner than stoich (14:7:1 A/F),
I
> stand by my assertion that it is "snake oil".
>
> Study this document by the SAE (whom I base my assertion on). Pay
> particular attention to the frequency response chart for the narrow-band
O2
> sensor. By its very definition, data outside this "narrow band" of
response
> is virtually useless and in practice varies greatly from sensor to sensor.
>
> http://www.sts.sae.org/membersonly/techinfo/servicetech/oxygen13-17.pdf
>
> Latr,
>
> Shane
>
>
> "Bernd D. Ratsch" wrote:
>
> > Here's the A/F chart from a 2001 R/T (basically stock with minor
> > bolt-ons).
> >
> > These were dyno runs performed on a brand new (3 month old) Dynojet.
> >
> > http://www.speedtweaks.net/images/2001RT.pdf
> >
> > Obviously, they were HP baseline runs (as you can see in the A/F
> > readings), but the 15.x figures were normal during light throttle
> > acceleration.
> >
> > I have yet to see a perfect 14.7:1 A/F on any vehicle.
> >
> > - Bernd
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET
> > [mailto:owner-dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET] On Behalf Of Shane Moseley
> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 6:06 AM
> > To: dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET
> > Subject: DML: Re: Hyper Speed Controller
> >
> > Again, all factory vehicles do indeed run at 14.7:1. This is a federal
> > mandate. The narrow-band O2 sensors ONLY function is to indicate leaner
> > or richer than the desired 14.7 to 1 ratio. Buy an A/F gauge and you
> > can watch it visually. Catalytic converter functionality would be
> > severely degraded if this were not the case. In fact, it would melt
> > down also at least on the rich side of stoich.
> >
> > At WOT, mine runs between 12.0-12.7 per the factory calibration. This
> > was verified w/a wide-band O2 sensor.
> >
> > Not doubting your results - just stating fact. Maybe its your test
> > equipment - what you using? If dyno - whats their equipment? How old
> > are their wide-band sensors? Have them do a free-air, or immerse in a
> > stream of known gas like propane.
> >
> > Latr,
> >
> > Shane
> >
> > "Bernd D. Ratsch" wrote:
> >
> > > Actually Shane, the trucks I've tested don't run at 14.7:1...they run
> > > at 15.1-15.3:1. Under WOT, it's not 12.5:1 either...more at
> > > 13.2-13.4:1.
> > >
> > > - Bernd
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET
> > > [mailto:owner-dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET] On Behalf Of Shane Moseley
> > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 9:46 PM
> > > To: dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET
> > > Subject: DML: Re: Hyper Speed Controller
> > >
> > > One thing I don't understand - 14.7:1 under normal cruise is what
> > > every factory vehicle's PCM is doing already. How is the HyperSpeed
> > > controller supposed to help? Furthermore, the factory tunes WOT to be
> >
> > > around 12.5:1 and is non-adjustable especially since the PCM is
> > > ignoring the O2 sensor while in that mode of operation (WOT).
> > >
> > > Sounds like snake oil to me.
> > >
> > > Bernd, your own track results show a slower ET w/the HyperSpeed
> > > controller in your before/after comparisons.
> > >
> > > Track Times:
> > >
> > > Before: 14.55 @ 96.01mph
> > > After: 14.65 @ 97.02mph
> > >
> > > What gives?
> > >
> > > Latr,
> > >
> > > Shane
> > >
> > > "Bernd D. Ratsch" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Actually, it's for just about any vehicle with an O2 sensor (or
> > > > two).
> > > >
> > > > It monitors the O2 signal (we'll use A/F for ease of understanding)
> > > > and corrects it to 14.7:1 under normal cruise and 12.0:1 under WOT
> > > > (WOT is adjustable +/-1.0).
> > > >
> > > > Again, the final product will be ready in 90 days (this is the one
> > > > with the USB port).
> > > >
> > > > - Bernd
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET
> > > > [mailto:owner-dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET] On Behalf Of Tim Althoff
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 10:01 PM
> > > > To: dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET
> > > > Subject: DML: RE: Hyper Speed Controller - Working and noticeably
> > > > better already
> > > >
> > > > ok bernd...I need to take out a little stress (I am supposed to have
> >
> > > > my Computer science program done by Friday at 5pm and have almost
> > > > nothing...I NEED TO BUY SOME NEW TOYS!!!
> > > >
> > > > is this for highly modded or could I get some results from my
> > > > lightly modded 3.9. (cold air, TB, ignition, exhaust, 180*,
> > > > modified intake, locker...soon to be 3.90 gears, elec fan, pulley.
> > > > How do you adjust it? I know laptop but how adjustable is it?
> > > >
> > > > most importantly what cost going to look like? thanks
> > > >
> > > > Tim Althoff
> > > > 99 RC Dak w/ V6 5-speed
> > > > http://go.to/yllwdkta
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET
> > > > [mailto:owner-dakota-truck@BUFFNET.NET]On Behalf Of Bernd D. Ratsch
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 4:26 PM
> > > > To: Dakotart@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: DML: HyperSpeed Controller - Working and noticeably better
> > > > already
> > > >
> > > > Yup...the HyperSpeed Controller (Proto-Type Rev-II) is installed and
> >
> > > > functioning as claimed. Much better throttle response, no overly
> > > > rich
> > >
> > > > (or lean) smell from the tailpipe (home-brew A/F meter...aka: nose),
> >
> > > > and the kicker is the lean spot caused by the supercharger at 1-2#
> > > > boost under 1/2-3/4 throttle...it's not there anymore.
> > > >
> > > > It took about 50 miles for the PCM to relearn the new (corrected)
> > > > settings from the HyperSpeed controller (reset the PCM after the
> > > > initial
> > > > installation) and adjusted the high-end enrichment a little bit
> > > > (will need to put back to normal in about 50 more miles or so).
> > > >
> > > > The final box will be released in 90 days with a USB port,
> > > > completely sealed box (for under the hood installation), and
> > > > software for your laptop. This will allow the end user to fine-tune
> >
> > > > the fuel curve (across the RPM band in small increment as
> > > > well)...this means programmable and automatic. Yes..you can adjust
> > > > on the fly (while driving).
> > > >
> > > > I put some pictures of the Proto-Type installation on the
> > > > SpeedTweaks website (Engine Controls/HyperSpeed) but keep in mind
> > > > that the final controller will be Plug and Play with your factory O2
> >
> > > > sensor(s). Yes...it replaces your stock (forward) O2 sensor(s).
> > > > With all this said, it's also 100% SMOG LEGAL (CARB EO#).
> > > >
> > > > I'll be heading to the Dyno shop this Friday to get some HP and TQ
> > > > readings, but the butt-dyno already noticed the change...nothing
> > > > else was installed in the mean time.
> > > >
> > > > - Bernd
>
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Fri Jun 20 2003 - 12:03:52 EDT